【世界网友】教育：各国网友纵论中国教育体制

北京史家小学周围的街道被一群家长围得水泄不通，以至于汽车也不得不打起退堂鼓

At 3.45pm on Friday, 11-year-old Zou Tingting, five minutes late, bounded through the school's west gate and into her waiting mother's arms. Tingting's classes were over, but her day was just beginning – she had an hour of homework, plus lessons in ping pong, swimming, art, calligraphy and piano.
此时是周五下午3:45。五分钟后，11岁的邹婷婷（音）走出了学校西门，扑进了等候她的妈妈怀里。婷婷放学了，但是她的一天才刚刚开始——她还要做一个小时的作业，额外学习乒乓球，游泳，美术，书法和钢琴。

Tingting's mother, Huang Chunhua, said that, like many Chinese mothers, she once considered Tingting's academic performance her top priority; now she realises the importance of a well-rounded education. "I've seen British curricular materials, and I'm actually kind of jealous," she said. "British teachers guide students to discover things on their own – they don't just feed them the answers, like in China."
婷婷妈，黄春华（音）说，像许多中国家长一样，她一度认为，婷婷的学习成绩是她的第一要务，现在她意识到了全面发展的重要性。“我曾经看过英国教材，其实，我有点嫉妒。”她说。“英国老师引导学生自己发现东西——他们不只像中国那样，塞给她们答案。”

In recent weeks British parents and educators have been in a panic about the discrepancy between the Chinese education system and the UK's. In December the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) released the 2012 results for its triennial Programme for International Student Assessment (Pisa) test – a reading, maths and science examination administered to half a million 15-year-olds in 65 countries. Shanghai students topped the rankings; the UK ranked 26th.
在最近几周，英国家长和教育工作者，英国和中国教育系统的差距而痛苦。经合发展组织在12月发布了三年一次的国际学生评估项目测试（Pisa）2012年的结果——组织了50万来自65个国家15岁的学生在阅读、数学和自然科学水平进行测试。上海学生得分最高，英国排名26位。

Next week education minister Elizabeth Truss will lead a "fact-finding mission" to Shanghai to learn the secrets of China's success. She plans to adjust the UK's education policy accordingly.
下周，教育部长伊丽莎白•特拉斯 将率领“真相调查团”来上海学习中国成功的秘密。她打算据此来调整英国的教育政策。

Yet Chinese parents and educators see their own system as corrupt, dehumanising, pressurised and unfair. In fact, many are looking to the west for answers. Huang said that some parents bribe Shijia primary school to admit their children (though she declined to say whether she had done so herself).
然而，中国家长和教育工作者把他们自己的系统看作是 腐朽的，不人性化的，压抑的和不公平的。事实上，很多人正向西方寻找答案。黄说一些家长向史家小学行贿，以录取他们的孩子（然而她拒绝透露她是否这么做过）。

Tingting attends an expensive cramming school at weekends, leaving her tired. She will probably have to abandon extracurricular activities in high school to devote more time to the college admission exam, called the gaokao. Many parents consider the gruelling nine-hour test a sorting mechanism that will determine the trajectory of their children's lives.
婷婷周末参加昂贵的补习班，这使她筋疲力竭。她将不得不抛弃高中的课余时间投入更多的时间以应付称作“高考”的高校准入考试。

Chinese experts are also less impressed than Truss by the Pisa scores. "Even though Shanghai students scored well on the test, this doesn't mean that Shanghai's education system doesn't have any problems," said Lao Kaisheng, a professor in the education department of Beijing Normal University. "In fact, it's the opposite."
中国专家也很少关注像特拉斯那样关注Pisa分数。“即使上海学生在测试中分数高，这不意味着上海的教育系统没有任何问题，”北京师范大学教育系教授劳凯声说。“实际上，恰恰相反。”

As long as China's education system remains vast but resource-constrained, Lao added, its schools will default to testing as a reliable indicator of competence. "The education system here puts a heavy emphasis on rote memorisation, which is great for students' test-taking ability but not for their problem-solving and leadership abilities or their interpersonal skills," he said. "Chinese schools just ignore these things."
只要中国教育市场依然广阔，而资源有限，劳补充道，学校就仍旧要依赖指标考核能力。“这的教育系统过于强调死记硬背，这对学生的应试能力尤为重要，但对他们的问题解决能力，领导能力，或他们的人际交往能力无用。”他说。“中国的学校恰恰忽略了这些事情。”

According to an analysis of the rankings, the children of Shanghai's cleaners and caterers are three years more advanced than UK lawyers' and doctors' children in maths. Yet the figures are an unreliable measure of equality. Although Shanghai's 23 million people make up less than 2% of China's population, its per capita GDP is more than double the national average; its college enrolment rate is four times as high.
按照排名分析，上海清洁工和食堂工作人员的孩子要比英国律师和医生的孩子在数学上领先3年多。然而这个数据没采用公平的方法测量。尽管上海的2300万人不到中国人口的2%，但他的人均GDP是全国平均水平的两倍，它的大学毛入学率是均值的四倍。

Furthermore, nearly half of Shanghai's school-age children belong to migrant families and were effectively barred from taking the test: because of China's residence registration system, these students are forced to attend high school in their home provinces, where schools are often debilitatingly understaffed. Although students from 12 provinces took the test in 2009, the government only shared Shanghai's scores.
此外，在上海的学龄儿童中，属于外来人口家庭的一半孩子实际上被禁止参加测试：因为中国居民登记制度，这些学生被强制回家乡省份上高中，这些高中经常缺乏教育人员。尽管2009年有12个省份参加了测试，但政府只公布上海的分数。

"The OECD has not disclosed if other Chinese provinces secretly took part in the 2012 assessment. Nor have Pisa officials disclosed who selected the provinces that participated," wrote Tom Loveless, an education expert at Harvard University, on a Brookings Institute blog. "There is a lack of transparency surrounding Pisa's relationship with China."
“经合与发展组织，没有披露是否有中国其他省份秘密参加了2012年的评估，也没有Pisa官方说明谁选了这些省份参加，”哈佛大学教育专家汤姆•洛夫莱斯，在布鲁金斯研究院的博客上写道。“Pisa和中国的关系缺乏透明度。”

Wang Peng, a teacher in Wuhu, a city in Anhui province, said that his school's average class size is significantly larger than most in Shanghai, and that it cannot compete in terms of financial strength. Wang said he makes about ￡300 a month; teachers in big cities make twice as much. "As far as education methods go, there's not a huge difference [between Wuhu and Shanghai]," he said. "But the general educational environment, and the opportunities that students receive – those are really different."
安徽省芜湖市的一位教师，王鹏（音）说，他们学校每班的平均人数比上海大多数的学校都多，而且资金实力根本不能相提并论。王硕，他每个月收入300英镑，大城市的教师收入，是这里的两倍。“就教育方法而言，武汉和上海没有大差别”他说，“但是普通教育环境和学生得到的机会——这些真的有差异。”

Occasionally, reminders of the system's ruthlessness cause soul-searching. In 2012, pictures of a classroom of Chinese high-school students hooked up to intravenous amino acid drips while studying for the gaokao went viral on social media. Last May two teenagers in Jiangsu killed themselves after "failing to complete homework", according to state media. In 2012, a student emerged from the exam to learn that his mother had died in a car crash 12 days prior; the school and his relatives conspired not to tell him so as to not distract him.
有时候，教育系统无情的提醒真的发人深省。2012年，中国高中一个教室里的学生为了高考而静脉滴注氨基酸的照片在社交媒体上疯狂传播。去年5月，据国家媒体报道，两个青少年因为“没能完成作业”而自杀。2012年，一个学生摆脱了考试才获悉，他的母亲在12天前的一场车祸中亡故。学校和他的亲属串通好，没有告诉他，以免让他分心。

Authorities recognise the problem. Last June the government issued guidelines urging schools to focus on students' "moral development", "citizenship" and "ambition" rather than their test scores.
当局认识到了问题。去年6月，政府发布指导意见敦促学校注重孩子的“道德发展”“公民义务”“志向”而非他们的考试分数。

Yet solutions remain elusive. One recently retired teacher at a Beijing middle school said she earns extra money by teaching an after-school cramming course called maths olympiad. The programme was designed as an advanced exercise for outstanding maths students.
然而解决方法仍然难以找到。一个北京中学刚退休的教师说，她通过叫奥数的课后补习班赚了很多钱。这一课程的目的是用高级的练习来寻找出色的数学学生。

In the late 1990s Beijing authorities barred grade schools from setting entrance exams, and some simply adopted maths olympiad scores as a substitute. Parents began to see the course as required, even if their children were uninterested or under-qualified. Although the education ministry has repeatedly cracked down on maths olympiad instruction, schools maintain the programme under different names, state media reported in 2012. Enrolment figures remain high.
在1990年代末北京当局禁止小学设置入学测试，或者仅采纳奥数成绩作为替代。家长们开始把这种课程视作必需的，即使教育部一再镇压奥数教学，学校仍然以不同的名目继续这种课程。国家媒体在2012年报道过。入学分数仍然很高。

"When maths olympiad first started, it had the right idea – it was a programme for students who were really interested," said the teacher, who requested anonymity because of the course's controversial profile. "There are a lot of kids without the ability who go to study this stuff, and it consumes their weekends, and their winter and summer vacations.
“奥数竞赛的初衷是好的——这是给真正有兴趣的学生们开设的课程。”一位因该课程具有争议性而要求匿名的老师说，“有许多孩子没有能力学习这项课程，这是在浪费他们的周末，他们的寒暑假。”

"These students aren't developing in a healthy way. This shouldn't be allowed to happen."
“这些学生没有以一个健康的方式发展。但在这里，健康发展是不可能的。”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~我是不可能的分割线~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

【评论】
RobP12 22 February 2014 4:27pm +10
Like most people, I do not really understand statistics, but I do understandhow statistics are used to drive through preferred policies. There is a widerissue of public education here. See:
http://educationmediacentre.org/blog/warning-learning-lessons-from-pisa-is-as-hard-as-winning-a-football-match/

就像许多人一样，我真不理解统计学，但是我理解统计学是如何用来得出更受欢迎的政策的。这里有关于公共教育的更广泛的议题。见：
undersinged @RobP12 23 February 20149:00am +9
Like most people, I do not really understand statistics, but I do understandhow statistics are used to drive through preferred policies.

You are contradicting yourself. If you do not understand statistics, it isimpossible to understand whether statistics are being used honestly ormisleadingly in a particular case. Another thing you are unlikely to understandif you don't understand statistics, is that when a politician or otherrhetorician invokes Disraeli's dismissive phrase,"lies, damned lies and statistics", the statistics being flippantlydismissed are usually correct, but happen to highlight inconvenient facts.
（楼上的）你自相矛盾了。如果你不懂统计学，就不可能理解，统计数据是被忠实地使用或是被误导性地用在了一个特殊事件上。如果你不懂统计学，那么另一个你可能不大明白的事情就是，在政客或者雄辩者引用迪斯累利那句轻蔑的话“谎言，该死的谎言和统计学”的时候。统计学被如此轻率地打发了常常是正确的，但那发生在它凸显了不太好解释的事情时。
Regarding PISA, your link talks about spurious precision, but there's enough ofa correlation between performances over time to suggest that it's not asserious a problem as the author makes out. However, there is another quiteserious issue, namely, that people usually think it directly compares theperformance of different countries' school systems, but it doesn't, because itcan't control for non-school factors, which may well be collectively moreimportant than what happens at school.
关于PISA，你的链接谈及了一些虚假的精度，但是随着时间的推移这些成绩之间是有足够的相关性的。这里并没有像作者所说的那么严重的问题。然而，这是另一个相当严肃的议题，即，人们通常认为它能直接比较不同国家间的学校体制，然而它不能。因为它没有控制非学校变量，这些变量的总体影响可能比在学校发生的更重要。


chalkandcheese 22 February 2014 4:35pm +35
The high schools in China work their students hard. I visited a boarding school(the best in Guangzhou, apparently, and very expensive) and their day startedat 7am with breakfast, they were in classes by 7:30am. An extra long, 2 and 1/2hour lunch (time for them to nap) and several half hour breaks for exercise andmeals, and they didn't leave the classrooms until 7:30pm.
中国高中让学生们刻苦学习。我参观过一个寄宿学校（广州最好的，而且，显然地，费用高昂），他们每天早7点吃早餐。7:30上课。一个超长的两个半小时的午休（让他们小憩的）然后还有几个长达半小时的课间休息用于锻炼和吃饭，他们直到晚上7:30才离开教室。After dinner they went back into their classrooms todo 'homework', before more exercise and lights out at 10:30pm.
晚饭后，他们会回到教室做“家庭作业”，然后再做些运动，晚10:30熄灯。
No computers, no video games, no phones allowed, they all wore identicaltracksuits (blue for boys, dusty pink for girls) went home on Saturdayafternoon and returned to school Sunday evening.
没有电脑，没有电子游戏，不许带电话。他们都穿着统一的运动服（男孩蓝色，女孩暗粉色），周六下午回家，周日晚上归校。
They were a bright bunch, with several excellent English speakers in every class,but they knew their lives were hard. I imagine they had friends in differentschools/provinces/countries whose school life was much less demanding.
他们是个聪明群体，每个班都有几个英语超棒的家伙，但是他们知道他们的生活很艰苦。我猜他们的在不同国家/省份/学校的朋友里没有谁的学校生活比他们更苦了。

PuWeiTa@chalkandcheese 22 February 2014 4:57pm +11
What's the point of "several excellent English speakers in everyclass"? I am sure everyone in England is an excellent speaker of English!All good students?
“每班都有几个英语说得很好的人”指得是什么？我敢肯定英国的每个人英语说得都很好！所有的好学生吗？【我猜他是要说all-round good student 三好学生】

mrkhawaja1944@chalkandcheese 22 February 2014 6:18pm +11
China got to this stage by preparing their children whereare they now and where they want to be in future in 21st century and beyond.
中国通过让这些孩子明白自己的处境和他们将来要处于何种地步来登上21世纪的舞台并获得超越。
Give you example of another nation in the region in fact a very good friend toowhere children take a week off because of local politicians birthday or day ofprotest or strike for political reason or for no reason at all and that greatnation is Pakistan they know how to take country back to stone ages in factthey are almost there with children reading their lessons in candle light as nopower or can not get to school as transport strike while look at the rulingclass not to worry their children's are educated in western countries.
给你们举个该区域另一个国家，其实也是一个非常要好的朋友的例子，那个国家的孩子会因为当地政客的生日而休假一周，或者因为 政治原因引起的罢工、抗议，甚至就没有原因，而休假一天。而这个伟大的国家就是巴基斯坦。说真的，他们知道怎么把国家搞回石器时代。他们那的孩子几乎都用蜡烛照明上课，没有电，或者当运输业罢工时，就不能上学了，而看看统治阶级，他们不用操心他们的孩子在西方国家的教育。
First they do not need Americans to bomb them back to stone ages they are doingit themselves with the help of Taliban who are doing their best to blow upschools and shoot children's who want to go to schools.
首先，他们不用美国人轰炸，就能在塔利班的帮助下把自己搞回石器时代——塔利班不遗余力地炸毁学校，射杀想上学的孩子们。
Can they learn from their friend china I guess not.
他们能从他们的朋友中国那里学到什么吗？我想不能。

chalkandcheese@PuWeiTa 22 February 2014 6:47pm +24
Well, being a good speaker of a second language, with a completely newalphabet, is usually a result of good training and a sharp brain. I thought theinference was obvious.
好吧，成为一个优秀的、使用全新的字母体系的第二外语使用者，通常是拥有一个敏锐的大脑和良好训练的结果。我想这个推断是理所当然的。

JMCornelis@PuWeiTa 22 February 2014 9:53pm +3
The point is ( or would be...) "several excellent Chinese speakers inevery class" but ..in England. This would be a surprise for all of us.....
关键在（或会在）“每个班都有几个汉语说得非常好的人”但是···在英国。对大家来说，这会令人惊讶的···

mickangelo@JMCornelis 22 February 2014 10:31pm +23
I spent 3 years in China, 2005-2008, teaching at three of their topuniversities. Once I had a chat with some of the students about schooleducation in China - I think it may have begun with my curious questioningabout why so many of them wore glasses, also why it was so hard to get aresponse from the class when I asked some simple question.
我2005-2008在中国待了3年，在他们三个顶级大学任教。有一次，我和一些学生探讨中国的学校教育——在我问了些简单的问题后，我想或许就引起了我对他们为什么有这么些人戴眼镜的好奇
They told me that school students are not taught as we would recognizeteaching, in China. They are not taught to think for themselves, never askedwhat their response might be to any particular question, just expected to copywhat the teacher writes on the board - oh and there are very few nativeEnglish-speaking teachers in China, so they only learn set phrases rather thanhow to conduct conversations.
他们告诉我。在中国，在校生教得不是我们认为应该教的东西。他们没有被教育要思考自身，从没被征询过对特定问题的看法。只被期待着去抄老师写在黑板上的东西——哦，中国只有很少的英语母语教师，所以他们只学造句而很少进行交谈。
All this is recognized as a problem by Chinese people themselves, as well as bysympathetic, visiting foreigners like myself.
所有这一切，都被中国人自己视作问题，自然也有想我这样有同情心的来访的外国人。

Asterisknow@chalkandcheese 23 February 2014 1:23am +7
Sounds like prison to me. Poor kids.
对我来说，就像监狱。可怜的小孩。

NiceBut@mickangelo 23 February 2014 3:08am +4
I agree with Mickangelo, having taught there myself in 2001, 2003,2005 in the 'English special classes'.
我赞同Mickangelo的说法，我在2001.2003.2005年的“英语特训班”教过他们。

Aladdin2557@PuWeiTa 23 February 2014 9:13am
He is talking about schools in China...
他在谈中国的学校。

dianab@PuWeiTa 24 February 2014 2:35pm
EAL students are common in many English classrooms - somemay understand/ speakno English - unlike Finland, there is no programme of giving new arrivals tothe country children a grasp of the language before they enter mainstreameducation.
靠评估确定水平的学生在许多英国课堂也很普遍——有些人可能不懂/说英语——不像芬兰，那里没有在新来的孩子进入主流教育之前帮他们掌握语言的项目。
Then there are children who do not speak English for other reasons - mutism,dyspraxia, some profoundly deaf children etc - and there are some who strugglewith formal, grammatically correct English
这样就有些孩子因为某些原因不能说英语——缄默症、协调障碍、一些全聋的孩子，等等——还有一些纠结于正式的、语法正确的英语。

Hadzhi @Asterisknow 24 February 20143:59pm +1
A Chinese student of mine said that school in China is worse than prison,because in prison at least they have time to play chess
我的一个中国 学生说中国学校比监狱更糟，因为至少在监狱，他们有时间下象棋。

Asterisknow @Hadzhi 24 February 2014 10:46pm
Aww...bless their little souls.
噢···保佑他们幼小的灵魂。

David Phillips 22 February 2014 4:49pm +39
Why is the Guardian not reporting how wasteful and unnecessary this trip is?The research report is already available. http://t.co/H519xQHM65
为什么卫报没有报道这次旅行是多么的浪费和没必要？这个研究报告已经可以了。http://www.nationalnumeracy.org.uk/resources/79/index.html

dorice @David Phillips 23 February 201412:36am +8
Agreed.
同意。
But if the Observer/Guardian thinks Gove and his department are responsible foreducation in Wales, Scotland, and NI, we shouldn't be surprised thatthey don't know about that research report.
但是如果观察家/卫报认为戈夫和他的部门对威尔士、苏格兰和北爱尔兰的教育负有责任的话，我们就不该奇怪，他们不知道这个研究报告。
Scotland's new Curriculum for Excellence is based on the Finnish system - asystem that the Guardian has repeatedly claimed is the best education system onthe planet.
苏格兰的新卓越课 是基于芬兰体系的——这一系统就是 卫报 反复宣称的这个星球上最好的教育体制。
As recently as 3 Dec Geoff Barton was writing about that system, but STILLrefusing (and it is a refusal - they know about the Scottish CfE -they just don't want YOU to know because it isn't a WestminsterLabour idea) to even mention Scotland.
就在最近的12月3号，杰夫·巴顿就为这个系统写了文章，但仍旧不（这是有优先考量的——他们知道苏格兰的卓越课程——但他们不想让你 知道，因为这不是国会里工党的主意）提苏格兰。
Scotland has had it's own unique education system since the first universities,NI since partition, and Wales has controlled it's education since devolution.
Yet once again we have the Observer/Guardian ignoring that, and claiming thatGove controls education in 'the UK'.
苏格兰直到建了第一所大学才有它的独特教育体系， 在分权各治之前，威尔士控制北爱的教育。
Again.
再说一次，
'Facts are sacred' ??
“事实是神圣的”
Really ?
真的吗？
【斯科特有言“评论自由，但事实神圣”，（Comment is free，but facts are sacred）这里是在讽刺媒体】

undersinged@dorice 23 February 2014 9:26am +5
a system that the Guardian has repeatedly claimed is the best education systemon the planet.

...which it isn't, but never mind.
这一系统就是 卫报 反复宣称的这个星球上最好的教育体制
它不是，但是无所谓了。

undersinged@dorice 23 February 2014 10:00am +3
Yet once again we have the Observer/Guardian ignoring that, and claiming thatGove controls education in 'the UK'.

Once again, you are *** a spurious complaint, caused by an over-activityScottish Nationalist gland. The article above the line makes no mention of Goveat all, and the PISA tests cover the whole of the UK, not just England, or evenEngland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

'Facts are sacred' ??

Really ?

In your case, perhaps not.
尽管我们的观察家/卫报再度忽略了这个，尽管他们声称戈夫掌控着英国的教育。
可你也再度弄了个虚假投诉，原因是 苏格兰民族主义腺功能亢进。上面的文章压根就没提戈夫，而且PISA测验涵盖了整个联合王国，没有说只有英格兰，或者更过分地说，包括英格兰，威尔士和北爱尔兰。
“事实是神圣的？”
真的吗？
在你的眼里，也许不是。

HondaOxford @David Phillips 24 February 2014 4:22am +1
I agree- you don't need to go to China to see what is happening. These tripsare just the wastefulness of non-tech savvy politicians
我同意——你不必到中国去看发生了什么。这些旅行对于没有专业技能的政客来说，只是浪费。

thefreemath 22 February 2014 4:50pm +5
Indian private schools and middle class are similar to the Chinese educationsystem
印度私立学校和中产阶级和中国的教育系统很像。

Nadiainegypt @thefreemath 23 February 20146:24am +3
Egyptian also. Here it is definitely a case of if you have money your child canhave an education and if you don't then your child is destined for a class of40 - 60 students and no equipment. In fact even in many of the "good"schools there is little equipment so that science experiments are discussed butnever actually performed. This year the half year holiday of two weeks has beenextended twice by two weeks, "security issues" and swine flu arevariously given as reasons. Private lessons are normal as teachers salaries areimpossible to live on, 100 GBP a month in a "good" school.
埃及的也是。在这里绝逼是，如果你有钱你的孩子就能受教育，如果你没有，那你的孩子只能在40-60人的大班上课，还没教学设备。事实上，即使在许多“好”学校，也只有很少的教学设备，结果科学实验都是讨论的，但从来没真正做过。今年每半年有两周的假期，已经被延长了两倍。

I was actually told that the problem is that teachers are greedy, they expectto be able to buy a flat and a car. With attitudes like this it is very hard tochange the system. Oh yes, my daughter was asked why doesn't she get a properjob in a bank instead of teach English!!!
我真正要讲的问题是，老师们很贪婪。他们期望能买一套公寓和一辆汽车。有了这样的态度，就很难改变体制了。哦，对了。我女儿被问及为什么不在银行找个好工作，而去教英语！！！

PuWeiTa 22 February 2014 4:54pm +8
Why are we constantly talking about how bad Chinese school systems are?Probably because Chinese students do well?

If the Chinese students do badly, then what's the point? Badchef bad food!

If the Chinese students do well then the article really should be howindividual students survive despite bad schooling!

Everywhere in the world "good schools" attract the best students.Maybe it's the students that should take the credit! No? Similarly don't blamethe school if most students' parents are drug addicts! Disagree? Let's swap thestudent body whole sale between the best and worst schools in one city, sayNYC?

If the school GWB went made an Einstein out of him, then I'll be impressed.

If the school BO went made a statesman out of a politician, then I'll beimpressed!
为什么我们常常谈论中国的教育体制有多糟？可能只是因为中国学生表现得好？如果，中国学生表现得坏，那又会谈什么？烂厨子做不出好东西吗？如果中国学生的成绩好，那么这篇文章应该谈论，这些学生是怎么在烂学校里艰难奋斗的啊！
世界各地都是，“好学校”吸引最好的学生。这些学生才是该居功的人啊！不是这样？同理的，不要抱怨学校，如果学生父母都是瘾君子的话！不同意？让我们 把同一个城市中，最好学校和最差学校里的学生交换身体吧，就纽约了，怎么样？
如果，学校的主观幸福量表能够把他塑造成爱因斯坦，我会深受震撼的。
如果，学校的BO 能够从政客里塑造出政治家，我会深受震撼的！

SaudiMike @PuWeiTa 23 February 20143:41am +22
I have worked with people from many countries, mainly engineers, and myimpression is that those from Asia tend to be very good on the theory side, butgive them something that is even slightly different from what they have beentaught, they are at a total loss.

Everything is learnt by rote with no idea how the outcome was achieved. This iswhy they are very good at exams, but struggle in once they get into the realworld
我曾和来自许多国家的人共事，主要是工程师，我的印象是，从亚洲来的人，在理论上都很擅长，但是如果给他们一些和他们所学的稍有不同的东西，他们就一头雾水了。
每件事都不假思索地死记硬背，怎么能有收获。这就是为甚么他们很擅长考试，但是一来到真实世界就到处碰壁。

musca12 @SaudiMike 23 February 20144:40am +19
One of my colleagues is a geologist that used to work in a mine in China. Hesaid the Chinese young geologists were very smart and quick. They werebrilliant in theory and could tell him every thing in the book but they were sobad at real work application in that they couldn't even read a compass. Onetime he came to the field and checked on the progress of a drilling program andfound out that the drill crew was drilling in the wrong area. It turned outthat the young Chinese geologist who were so brilliant at all the theory in thebook couldn't even read the compass and had instruct the drilling crew to drillin the opposite direction of where they were supposed to drill. This mistakehas cost the company hundred of dollars. I am actually a product from sucheducation system, having trying really hard to retrain my thinking , I actuallyunderstand what damage it can make.
我的一个同僚，是曾经在中国矿场中工作的地质学家。他说，中国年轻的地质学家，非常聪明，反应很快。他们精通理论，能够告诉他书本上的每件事，但是他们在真实工作中的表现是如此糟糕，以至于他们甚至看不懂指南针。一次，他来到工地，检查了一个钻探工作的进度，发现钻探队在一个错误的区域施工。这证明，中国的年轻地质学家，精通所有理论，但是甚至看不懂指南针，并且指示钻探队在和目标地点完全相反的地方钻探。这一失误，浪费了公司数以百计的美元。我其实就是这样的教育体制的产物，而且真的非常吃力地重塑自己的思考方式，我的确理解，这会造成多大损害。

SaudiMike @PuWeiTa 23 February 20148:42am +8
Another issue, probably due to the inbuilt, or brainwashed, believe that anyonesenior to them automatically are correct, if they are given a drawing orspecification, they will not question it, or even consider the possibility thatthere might be anything wrong. Whereas my training was to check everythingyou're given, as in the end it is your responsibility if anything goes wrong.
另一个问题，可能是天生的，或者被洗脑了，相信任何比他们级别高的人自然是对的，如果他们被交给一份图纸或者说明书，他们不会问为什么，或者甚至认为这没能是给错人了。然而，我受到的教育是，检查交给你的每件事，最后，如果它们有问题，要及时反馈。

undersinged @PuWeiTa 23 February 20149:54am +3
Why are we constantly talking about how bad Chinese school systems are? Probablybecause Chinese students do well?
为什么我们常常谈论中国的教育体制有多糟？可能只是因为中国学生表现得好？
That is exactly the reason. Chinese students do much better than those of anyEuropean country, including - most horrifically from the Guardian's point ofview - those of Finland.

The Guardian loves the Finnish education system, and talks about it constantly,because it's very egalitarian, has no exams, not selective schools, no privateschools, and no external inspectors assessing the teachers and rating theschools. The Finnish school system represents the Guardian's ideal, whereas theChinese system, with its classroom discipline, very traditional approach toteaching, rigorous exams, selective schools, etc., is the antithesis of thatideal.

It horrifies the staff at the Guardian that such a system can not only eclipsethe Finnish system, but do so by a wide margin. Therefore, they seek outcritics, in order to "prove" to themselves and their readers that thesystem is bad.

One statistic that the Guardian ignores is that, for all the rigours of China'svery competitive education system, children in Finnish schools are less happythan those in Shanghai, according to the PISA survey.

This can be explained by the fact that Finland achieves its high ranking byhot-housing the low ability children while leaving the high ability children tocoast (evidenced by the huge gap between the attainment of children ofprofessionals in Finland compared with their counterparts in some otherEuropean countries - in particular, Germany). This produces very egalitarianresults, and a high overall average, but the high ability children areachieving far less than they could if they were taught properly (and areprobably bored in school), while the low ability children are feeling thepressure of work.
这就是真正的原因。中国学生的表现比欧洲任何国家的学生都好，包括——卫报最糟的看法——芬兰学生。
卫报喜爱芬兰教育体制，并且常常探讨它，因为它非常公平，没有考试，没有择校，没有私立学校，没有外部的核查人员评价教师，给学校评级。芬兰的学校体系，代表着卫报的理想，然而，中国体系：课堂里的歧视，非常传统的教学方式，严格的考试，择校，等等···，是卫报理想的对立面。

对卫报的人来说，可怕地是，这个体系甩了芬兰体制几条街。因此，他们找到了批评家，为了向他们自己和他们的读者“证明”，这个体系是糟糕的。
卫报忽略了一个统计数据就是，尽管中国教育体制有着严酷的竞争，但是根据PISA的调查，芬兰学校比上海的更不开心。
这就用事实解释了，芬兰通过把能力差的孩子放进暖房，而把高能力孩子的放任不顾的方式获得了高排名（这被芬兰孩子在专业技能上的表现和欧洲其他国家的人——特别是，德国，有着巨大差距所证明）。这就造成了非常平均的结果，和很高的平均水准，但是高能力孩子们取得的成就远远少于，如果他们以适当的方式被训练的结果（可能在学校过得很枯燥）；而低能力的孩子们，觉得学习很有压力。
Everywhere in the world "good schools" attract the best students.Maybe it's the students that should take the credit! No? Similarly don't blamethe school if most students' parents are drug addicts! Disagree? Let's swap thestudent body whole sale between the best and worst schools in one city, sayNYC?
世界各地都是，“好学校”吸引最好的学生。这些学生才是该居功的人啊！不是这样？同理的，不要抱怨学校，如果学生父母都是瘾君子的话！不同意？让我们呢把同一个城市中，最好学校和最差学校里的学生交换身体吧，纽约怎么样？

The point you are *** is important, but most people ignore it. Althoughschools are a factor, background factors like what kind of family a child isbrought up in are equally important, if not more so, and schools cannot turnlead into gold.
你提出的观点非常重要，但大多数人佯装未见。虽然学校是个因素，像这种孩子成长的家庭环境的背景因素，同样重要，朽木难成材啊。

judyblue @musca12 23 February 20144:24pm +1
so brilliant at all the theory in the book couldn't even read the compass

I think this is a failing of the education systems in many countries, includingthese days the US. When the emphasis is on passing a paper-and-pencil (okay,I'm old) test that must be graded by machine, the ways of assessing competenceare limited and the students can get high scores without having practicalability. Educators trumpet these high scores and declare the job done. Sometimesthe students themselves believe that they know what they are doing; other timesthey recognize their inadequate training and they try to avoid situations whereit would show. They have official credentials, which lets them get a job and agood salary. As long as the person who is sent out to do the actual work didn'tgo to school to learn how, nobody is the wiser. :-)
精通所有理论，但是甚至看不懂指南针
我想在许多国家，这都是教育体制的失败，包括那时的美国。只强调通过那种由机器分级的笔试（好吧，我太老套了）测验，评估能力的途径就被限制了，并且，学生不需要实践能力就能获得高分。教育者宣扬这些高分，并称教育目标已经达到。有时候，雪人自己认为他们知道他们在做什么，有些时候，他们认识到，自己缺乏训练，并且他们试着扬长避短。他们拥有官方凭证，这让他们可以得到工作，和好的薪水。直到人们把从学校里学不到的真正的工作交到他们手里。没有智者啊。:-)

000a000 22 February 2014 5:06pm +19
I'm sure there are things we can learn. The UK school system now verges on social care unless (like Polly) you can use the private sector. Any learning is good - most of us have our eyes open and don't accept an alternative system in the whole, but look at parts that work and parts that don't.
我想，那有些我们能学习的东西。英国的学校系统处在社会救济的边缘，除非你能上得起私立的。学到点什么都是好的——我们中的大多数正睁大眼睛期待着，全盘照搬是不行的，只要有效的那部分，而不要无效的部分。

socialistnotnulabour @000a000 22 February 2014 5:39pm +28
The poorest Chinese students are ranked higher than public school pupils in the UK.

What has gone wrong with private education in the UK?

最贫穷的中国学生排名比英国公立学校的孩子还高。
英国的私立教育出了什么问题？

busyteacher @000a000 22 February 2014 5:54pm +22
"The UK school system now verges on social care unless (like Polly) you can use the private sector."
英国的学校系统处在社会救济的边缘，除非你能上得起私立的
That's a lie.

Not only is it a lie, it's a stupid lie.

According to page 9 of Ofsted's 2013 school's report, 78% of schools inspected last year were either 'good' or 'outstanding':

http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/annualreport1213/schools-report

Now, I suppose, you'll go ahead and trash Michael Wilshaw's Ofsted.
你说谎。这不仅是个谎言，还是个愚蠢的谎言。根据英国教育标准局的报告第9页，78%的学校去年的检查结果，不是“良好”就是“优秀”
现在，我想，你该去谴责麦克·威尔肖的教标局了。



000a000 @busyteacher 22 February 2014 11:57pm +4
78% of schools inspected last year were either 'good' or 'outstanding

It's never been better eh? Do you respect Ofsted more than international exam tables that repeatedly show the UK going down the league tables? Personally I don't - we should be open to learning from other countries.
78%的学校去年的检查结果，不是“良好”就是“优秀”
它也好不到哪去了，是吧？国际测验表上英国的成排名不断下跌，比起国际测验表，你更相信教标局？就个人意见而言，我不是这样——我们应该敞开心胸，从其他国家那学习。


000a000 @busyteacher 23 February 2014 12:03am +4
Now I note your handle: that's the entire problem.

UK teachers are those that can't do anything else - the least capable.

This isn't how it should be - teachers should be selected from private industry - they should be successes, not those that could not get a job in another industry as is current.

Remove teaching unions, vastly increase standards, vastly increase wages after sacking 90% of current teachers and we would have a world class education system.
我抓到了你的把柄，那就是全部的问题
英国教师，什么也做不了——缺乏能力。
教师不该是这样的——教师应该，从私营行业选拔——他们应该是成功人士，而不是在其他行业找不到工作才来应聘教师。
解散教师工会，在解雇90%现任的教师后，大幅提高（行业准入）标准，大幅增加工资，然后，我们会有一个世界级的教育体制。


busyteacher @000a000 23 February 2014 12:12am +16
I'm proud of my "handle", as you call it - at least I don't hide behind a nondescript string of digits which betrays nothing except the paucity of my imagination.

As to your so-called 'points'?

Right wing tosh, ten a penny, rent a gob mewlings. The likes of you would run screaming from a classroom after a single day.
我对我的“把柄”很自豪，按你的叫法——至少，我没有躲在一串超出我贫乏想象的不知所谓的数据后面。
关于你所谓的“观点”
右翼狂言，一钱不值，暗地里大放厥辞。像你这样的人，在教室里呆一天，就抓狂了吧。


whatsitallfor @socialistnotnulabour 23 February 2014 12:45am +3
The poorest Chinese students are ranked higher than public school pupils in the UK.

What has gone wrong with private education in the UK?

Ask the Chinese, the ones who can afford it are sending their children to public schools in the UK or to the branches of the public schools which are opening in China.
最贫穷的中国学生排名比英国公立学校的孩子还高。
英国的私立教育出了什么问题？

问问中国人，他们能付起钱的人，都把孩子往英国的公立学校里送，或者送到那些招收中国学生的公立学校的分校。

socialistnotnulabour @whatsitallfor 23 February 2014 12:47am +2
So that's the plan.

Open British public schools in China to dumb them down.
所以，有办法了。
对中国开放英国的公立学校，把他们搞下来。


penpoints @000a000 23 February 2014 1:38am +20
You are funny;
你很搞笑啊。

UK teachers are those that can't do anything else - the least capable.
英国教师，什么也做不了——缺乏能力。

Goebbels would be proud of you
戈培尔会因你而自豪的。
teachers should be selected from private industry
教师应该从私营行业选拔
yes, those shining successes in the banking industry? Or maybe those cold callers? Or the successful ***ographers?
是的，从那些银行业里光鲜亮丽的成功人士中选拔？或者是那些推销员？成功的色情小说家？

Remove teaching unions
解散教师工会
And have some petty despot mess with childrens lives..
然后，让一些心胸狭隘的暴君摆布孩子们的生活。
vastly increase standards
大幅提高（行业准入）标准
drive up standards - yes that tiresome cliche - obvious that no-one working in the current system wants to drive up standards. I have missed this clearly.
抬高标准——是啊惹人生厌的陈词滥调——显然，在当前体制内工作的人没人想抬高标准。我显然漏掉了这个。
vastly increase wages after sacking 90% of current teachers
在解雇90%现任的教师后，大幅增加工资
And end up with class sizes of 1 to 300 as this is clearly the way forward.
然后让班级的规模扩大300倍，这显然是未来的方向。
would have a world class education system.
我们会有一个世界级的教育体制
just because you went to school doesn't mean you know anything.
你上学，不意味着，你啥都知道。

you are funny in many ways. your comments are insane drivel
你是全方位的搞笑啊。你的评论是痴人说梦。

EnProvince @000a000 23 February 2014 10:37am +9
If any of your points made any sense you'd be dangerous. As it is we can all sleep safe in our beds knowing you're at home confusing yourself trying desperately to come up with a coherent thought.
如果你的建议，有任何一点有意义的地方，你将会是个危险的人。正因为没有，所以当我们知道你在家里绝望地试图组织出一点合乎逻辑的想法时，我们都能够高枕无忧了。

HondaOxford @busyteacher 24 February 2014 4:28am
Absolutely. I'll trash Ofsted anyday. I worked in a school that had few achieving students, poor management, appalling resources and ofsted rated it as 'good'. The sole purpose of the institutuion was to keep the kids off the streets.Social care at its finest.
绝对会。总有一天，我会砸烂教标局的。我工作的学校，只有几个好学生，可怜的管理，糟糕的教学资源而且，教标局 还把他评为“良好”。这个机构唯一的目的就是别让孩子们在街上乱逛。社会关怀就是他的宗旨。

busyteacher @HondaOxford 24 February 2014 11:08am +2
Well of course your single anecdote, and opinion of one school, trumps everybody and everything else.
当然了，你个人的逸事，对学校的看法，胜过人间无数。

Biddlemon @000a000 24 February 2014 7:54pm
I've given out international tests in the UK and seen them given in Hungary and Belgium and discussed them with people in China.

They are a total waste of time. You cannot devise literacy tests for all the different languages and different complexity of grammar. The students taking them have had different numbers of years in full time education so you are not comparing like with like. Some countries don't give the tests to children with learning difficulties because their children are in special schools where a high proportion of ours are in mainstream.

Millions of children in countries such as China receive no education at all so how can they be compared when they don't go to school so don't do the test?
我在英国进行过国际测验，也看过他们在匈牙利和比利时进行测验，并和中国学生一起讨论他们。
他们完全是在浪费时间。你不能为所有不同语言和不同复杂度的语法设计一份文字测验。参试的学生们受全日制教育的时间也不相同，所以你比较不出什么的。一些国家不让有学习困难的学生参加考试，因为他们的孩子是在一个特殊学校，那里像我们一样的大多数还是主流。
数以百万计的在诸如中国这样的国家里的孩子们 根本接受不到任何教育，所以他们既不上学也不参加考试，又该被怎么比较呢？

alefingpacino @000a000 25 February 2014 12:54am
Totally agree.
完全同意。


pentimenti 22 February 2014 5:18pm +53
I commented to a colleague, a mathematics professor from Romania, that her country seemed to have an excellent reputation for mathematics and sciences. She grinned "Great at math but lousy at democracy; that's why I left!"
我和一个同事谈过，一个来自罗马尼亚的的数学教授，她的国家，好像在数学和科学上有着崇高声望。她咧嘴一笑：“长于数学，但民主很糟；所以，我离开了！”



economicwar 22 February 2014 5:35pm +36
Yeah but how many creative genuses does this kind of system produce?

It has its merits, but tends to condition people into being automatons that don't rock the boat. Probably its ultimate purpose.
是的，但是这种体系又诞生了多少有创造力的天才呢？
它有它的优势，但是把人变成机器，是划不了船的。可能这就是他最终的目的。

socialistnotnulabour @economicwar 22 February 2014 5:40pm +11
http://world.time.com/2013/12/04 ... nt-rankings-system/

The Chinese are being very truthful.
中国人正变得非常坦率。

socialistnotnulabour @socialistnotnulabour 22 February 2014 5:42pm +5
That should be they aren't be very truthful
那应该说，他们还不够坦率。



judyblue 22 February 2014 5:37pm +10
"The education system here puts a heavy emphasis on rote memorisation, which is great for students' test-taking ability but not for their problem-solving and leadership abilities or their interpersonal skills," he said.
“这的教育系统过于强调死记硬背，这对学生的应试能力尤为重要，但对他们的问题解决能力，领导能力，或他们的人际交往能力无用。”他说。

Every education system and society has its advantages and disadvantages. The US school system currently fails to teach basic facts or basic math skills, but other nations send their students here for summer internships to absorb some of the American "jump in and try something" approach to innovative problem-solving. A better balance would help everybody.
每个教育系统或社会，都有它的优势和劣势。美国的学校系统在教授基本事实的或者基本数学技能的时候，是失败的；但是，但是其他国家把他们的学生送到这来参加夏季实习，以便吸收一些，美式的“跳起来试一试”的创新型问题解决法。更好的平衡（优劣势），有益于每个人。

Plogster @judyblue 22 February 2014 6:17pm +20
"but other nations send their students here for summer internships to absorb some of the American "jump in and try something" approach to innovative problem-solving"
但是，但是其他国家把他们的学生送到这来参加夏季实习，以便吸收一些，美式的“跳起来试一试”的创新型问题解决法。
Ahh - that would explain a lot about the development of American Foreign policy !
啊哈——这会有助于解释很多美国外交政策的发展。
judyblue @Plogster 23 February 2014 5:10am +2
It would? You've lost me.
是吗？你把我弄糊涂了。

kampai @judyblue 23 February 2014 8:09am +3
It seems pretty clear Plogster is suggesting that American foreign policy is based on just 'jumping in and trying something' - i.e. acting first, thinking later - combined with a lack of understanding of basic facts.

There are plenty of big examples of this kind of thing, an obvious case in point being the mess in Afghanistan: invading on a revenge mission masquerading as democracy building without a proper plan for winning 'hearts and minds' or for reconstruction, just assuming it'll all somehow work out, then diverting attention elsewhere to start a second war - also not properly thought out - when the original job is only half done, leaving things to fall apart again, then bringing forward the timetable for an exit because of political expedience rather than the job actually being done.
这再明显不过了，Plogster是在暗示，美国的对外政策就是基于“跳起来，试一试”思维模式的——即，先动手，后思考——再与缺乏对基本事实的理解相结合。
这种事，有太多的例子了，一个显而易见的事情就是阿富汗的乱局：假借民主建设之名，行复仇之实，还没有一个“成竹在胸”的预先计划，或重建方略，就悍然入侵，只是假设，计划会自己跳出来，然后又转移注意力开启了第二场战争——也没有深思熟虑——当原来的工作只做了一半，就任由它前功尽弃，然后还设定了一个推出时间表，因为政治代价比完成工作的代价更沉重。

Ignoring basic facts, check.忽略基本事实，鉴定完毕

Jumping in without a serious plan, check.不做认真计划，先跳起来再说，鉴定完毕。

judyblue @kampai 23 February 2014 5:05pm +2
Ah! Thank you for explaining the joke. I must agree. The "jump in and try something" approach can have good results when the enterprise is laboratory work (of the non-exploding, non-toxic, non-infectious kind) or materials design (as long as it gets tested before it is used for real) or other such endeavors. Not a good idea when lives are at risk.

Two other cultural tendencies that I have encountered are "there is one correct way to do this task, imitate the teacher exactly" and "collect and master every bit of information that is known so far about a system, then propose a course of action building in small steps on previous knowledge". I can see how all three approaches have good and bad outcomes depending on the area of application and the risks involved. Ideally we would choose the best approach for the job at hand rather than taking the same approach to everything. In foreign policy, we should be mastering all information, not trying out brainstorms or imitating the one true pattern.
啊！感谢你解释了这个玩笑。我很同意。“跳起来，试一试”的方式，对于科研工作（无爆炸性，无毒性，无传染性之类）或者实物设计（只要他在实际使用之间，经过了测试）或其他类似的工作，很有效。不适合用生命做冒险的事情。

我遇到的另两个文化倾向是“只有一种正确的方法完成任务，完全模仿老师”和“收集并掌握迄今为止所知的关于一个系统的每一点信息，然后，基于之前所知的提出一点小的改动。”我能看到这三种方式，在应用领域产生的好结果和坏结果，以及带来的风险。理想说地，与其选择同样的方式完成每件事，我们不如选择最好的方式完成手头的工作。在对外政策上，我们应该掌握所有信息，不依靠头脑风暴，或者，找出那个唯一正确的模式。




busyteacher 22 February 2014 5:39pm +56
The secret of China's success is entering a select Shanghai cohort of students in order to game the results.
中国成功的秘密就是，派了一队上海学生参加了考试，操纵了结果。

http://www.theatlantic.com/natio ... -test-scores/67654/

I could save Ms Truss the trouble of her 'all expenses paid by the UK taxpayer' trip. All she has to do is select and enter the 5000 most hothoused UK students next time round, and -heypresto!- the UK jumps into the top three.

"Just Like That"
我可以省去特拉斯女士这场一切花费都由纳税人埋单的旅行的麻烦。她需要做的就是挑选5000名英国学习任务最轻松的学生，来到他们中间，然后说——我变变变！——英国就能跃居前三了。
“就这样。”


safdarpak 22 February 2014 6:13pm +5
Primary education is go-slow phenomena in the UK.I think at this early level ,English schools only serve the purpose of children's orientation.Instructional level stands unheeded. My grand child who is four years old only learning to write his name. The thrust at school is towards activities which have playful dimensions.No attention is paid to develop work habits which provide a solid base to child.in life. A complete revamping is required to produce worthwhile student body. A new & dynamic educational programme couched in deliverance is needed.
英国小学教育有拖沓的现象。我想，在早期阶段，英国学校的目的就是给这些孩子提供自我定位，基础教育被无视。我的大孩子，4岁了，只学习写自己的名字。在学校的痛楚，就是活动只有嬉戏。不注重的是，工作习惯的养成，这能给孩子提供一个坚实的人生基础。产生有价值的学生，（学校）需要彻底的改造。需要一个新的充满活力的教育拯救计划。
PiqueABoo safdarpak 22 February 2014 6:15pm +5
Primary education is go-slow phenomena in the UK
英国小学教育有拖沓的现象。
Is it? Well it's even slower in Shaghai.
是吗？好吧，在上海更慢。
kernowken @safdarpak 22 February 2014 6:44pm +14
?
？


wiegsy @safdarpak 22 February 2014 10:39pm +17
Your grandchild is ONLY 4! What do you expect?
你的大孩子才4岁，你还指望什么呢？
In most education systems (Finland being the obvious example) children don't start formal education until 7 and they are consistently considered to be better than the UK.
在大多数的教育体制中（芬兰就是个显著的例子），孩子直到7岁才开始正规教育，而他们一贯被认为比英国的体制更好。

whatsitallfor @safdarpak 23 February 2014 12:51am +9
My grand child who is four years old only learning to write his name
我的大孩子，4岁了，只学习写自己的名字。
If you expect much more from a four year old you are being unreasonable. In 'only learning to write his name' your grandchild is learning -

1. How to hold a writing instrument properly.

2. What the letters are.

3. How to form the letters.

4. How to spell.

5. How to place the letters in line.
如果，你指望一个四岁孩子懂更多，就是期望过高了。
在学写名字的时候，你的孩子学习了：
1、怎么恰当的拿笔
2、字母都是什么
3、如何写字母
4、怎么拼写
5、怎么把字母写成一排


PiqueABoo 22 February 2014 6:14pm +1
This is the very best (rabble rousing) recent take I've found on Shanghai and PISA rankings. It is the third of a trilogy, the first two are linked from it and are worth reading first:

PISA’s China Problem Continues: A Response to Schleicher, Zhang, and Tucker

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/b ... nghai-pisa-loveless
这是最近我发现的关于上海和PISA排名的、最好的东西。这是三部曲的第三部，前两部也能在链接里找到，该先看看他们。
PISA的中国问题后续：回应 施莱切尔，张，和 塔克


EnProvince 22 February 2014 6:25pm +43
Everyone knows that China's poorest children don't even go to school, let alone take tests. The high scores come from carefully selected regions / schools / cohorts. China's obsessive desire to be seen to be doing well trumps their ability to be transparent and honest about what is really going on.
大家都知道中国最贫穷的孩子们甚至上不起学校，别提参加考试了。高分来自于精心挑选的区域/学校/群体。中国想让别人看得起的固执愿望胜过了，他们对于他们真实能力的清澈和诚实的态度。
quarrytone @EnProvince 23 February 2014 9:25am +5
Really? The poor don't go to school? That's news to me here in Beijing.

Selecting Shanghai is like the UK selecting London. Are you really convinced this would put us up there with Hong Kong and South Korea?
真的吗？穷人上不起学，北京的表示不服啊。选择上海，就像在英国选择伦敦。你真的确信，要把我们这和香港，韩国相提并论吗？

EnProvince @quarrytone 23 February 2014 10:41am +8
I didn't write 'poor'. I wrote 'poorest'. Your second mistake was to mention that you're in Beijing.
我没说“穷”，我说的是“最穷”。你的第二个错误就是提到了，你在北京。
EnProvince @quarrytone 23 February 2014 10:44am +7
If the UK selected London for the UK, we'd fly up the tables. Even more realistically, if we chose the most motivated students in the best schools in London then made them cram for six hours after school, we'd probs do even better still. See how it works? Not complicated.
如果选伦敦代表英国，我会(╯‵□′)╯︵┻━┻。更现实地说，如果我们选了伦敦最好学校最牛B的学生，让后，让他们在放学后，也硬背六个小时的话，我们能做得更好。想试试看吗？这不难理解。


busyteacher @quarrytone 23 February 2014 1:21pm +4
Yes, London is by FAR the best performing state school sector in the UK. Our test scores are consistently well above the national averages. We would immediately go up in the PISA tables if only 5000 London students took the test.
是的，伦敦迄今为止英国最好的公立学校。我们的考试分数一贯在国家平均分数以上。如果，只有5000个伦敦学生参加测试，我们的PISA排名会立刻蹿升的。

busyteacher @EnProvince 23 February 2014 1:23pm +5
SPOT ON.
对极了。
quarrytone @EnProvince 23 February 2014 1:35pm +3
Like the derisory tone. Or is it touchy?

Fair enough. You said poorest. Out of 1.38 billion, there are a tiny minority don't go to school. Apparently everyone knows that and its pertinent.

I'm surprised your so confident about London? Seriously? You have that low opinion of the other towns and cities of the UK? So your privy to the Shanghai example and they are carefully selected to be the most motivated and best? The cramming point is of course spot on, its called a culture of hard work, thats why Shanghai tops the league, likewise Hong Kong, South Korea etc etc. So I suppose the fact the Chinese also top results from US universities is also carefully selected top performers? Even though most are only there because their parents have the money to send them. By all means criticize their education system, by why the need to imply the achievements are somehow artificially boosted and faked?

quarrytone @busyteacher 23 February 2014 1:38pm +3
I stand corrected.

If the Shanghai sample is fixed and the results thereby faked, that's a scandal. I wish someone would provide the evidence then the false debate's over.

quarrytone @EnProvince 23 February 2014 1:40pm +4
I stand corrected. My apologies.

If London clearly outperforms the rest of the UK, if the Shanghai sample is fixed and the results thereby faked, that's a scandal. I wish someone would provide the evidence then the false debate's over and Gove an idiot.

EnProvince @quarrytone 23 February 2014 2:03pm +4
Derisory? That's your interpretation.

Touchy? No, I don't think so.

You said poorest? Yep. You then confirmed it.

Apparently everyone knows that? Well ... maybe most intelligent people, I'll give you that.

It's pertinent? Yep.

Confident about London? Yep. Check it out. London's one of the big success stories of recent years in education.

Privvy to the Shanghai example? Well, I've read all about it, and it seems fairly damning.

Cramming, culture of hard work? Mmm ... maybe ... so why are so many Chinese people who are clued up wanting to go into the UK or US system, then? Could it be that they want their children to be able to think?

Carefully selected top performers in US universities? Of course! They don't select the weak students, do they?!

Faked? Oh dear, I'm losing the will now. I think you probably get the idea now though?

EnProvince @quarrytone 23 February 2014 2:05pm +2
Thanks.

Yep. You've got it now. Took a while but you're there.

quarrytone @EnProvince 23 February 2014 2:18pm +3
"Apparently everyone knows that? Well ... maybe most intelligent people, I'll give you that."

Apparently apart from the BBC and NYT in their documentaries.

"Cramming, culture of hard work? Mmm ... maybe ... so why are so many Chinese people who are clued up wanting to go into the UK or US system, then? Could it be that they want their children to be able to think?"

I think everyone certainly knows that.

"Carefully selected top performers in US universities? Of course! They don't select the weak students, do they?! "

Probably because there arn't many. But in truth, yes, they will take weak students, at least on their IELTS or TOEFL scores. Primarily they take the money, I've yet to meet a single IELTS student with the money turned down in the UK. Some IT departments at George Washington (masters level) are 90% + Chinese. And yes, they work hard and get comparatively good grades, even with mediocre English.

qu